my argument continues

Maybe we will have a different view in this country as a lot of people have this arrogant view that everyone should want to play in England. And that somehow Messi should feel the urge to "prove" himself in the premier league. Sky sports tell everyone it's the best the league in the world so it must be true.

 

Before Messi and Ronaldo came along it was considered incredible for a striker to score

Messi is Barcelona, Argentina and La Liga’s all time top goal scorer, He holds the world record for most goals in a year, the joint most ballon D’ors the most european golden boots and by the time he retires he will have won the most trophies of any player.

Before he and Ronaldo came along it was considered an amazing achievement to score 30 goals in a season at his peak he scored 73 goals in one season on top of 29 assists. Every goal scorer in Europe will be compared to them for the next 50 years and you’re delusional if you think otherwise.

In 30 years I’ll be 60 I’ll be telling my Grandkids about the 2 greatest players I’ve ever seen playing at the 2 biggest clubs in the world at the same time.

 

History suggests otherwise.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_men's_footballers_with_500_or_more_goals

From that list I know Pele, Puskas and Eusebio because they're consistently talked about as being the greatest ever, largely due to their exploits at World Cups. I also know Romario, Sanchez, Zico and Messi because I've seen them play live at World Cups. Muller because he scored the winner for Germany in the infamous 3-2 defeat of England at the 1970 world cup. Ronaldo because he played for Man Utd. And Jimmy Greaves because he was on TV, had trouble with drink and was famous for missing a world cup. What they all did at their clubs, I hadn't a clue until I looked this up.

What Messi and Ronaldo have done at their clubs I have a bit more of an idea about because of the age we live in and the talk about them on the web. But web stories are even more disposable than newspaper stories. There'll be different players hailed as the best ever soon enough. If they produce at the World Cup they'll be in TV shows alongside Pele and Maradonna, but not Messi and Ronaldo or the other great players who are eventually forgotten because they didn't do it at the world cup.

 

Was it better than Geoff Hurst’s?

 

We have the most competitive league for if he wanted to show he could do it somewhere else. Even if he didn't fancy it here he could go to Italy, France, Germany or try and win his country a trophy.

 

It was in my head clearly.

Nowt like ruining your own argument by getting the name wrong.

 

Eusebio never even played in a World Cup final. Puskas was only a runner-up. People talk about them as being the greatest-ever, you say, but neither of them have done any more than Messi in a World Cup.

 

On the contrary, at least you remember Jimmy Greaves, whereas you have mixed up World Cup winning non-entity Roger Hunt with one of the guys you have down as a legend!

I think all it demonstrates is that I'm older than you and my memory at this point in time is functioning better

 

The ones on that list that you haven’t heard of didn’t play in the best league in the world for the biggest clubs in the world though did they?

Just because you don’t watch the champions league or La Liga and only see them in a World Cup doesn’t mean everyone else does.
They’ve won the last 10 World player of the years between them. There’s footage of every single one of their goals and assists on YouTube. They’ve got millions of kids all over the world with their shirts.
This is the Messi and Ronaldo era It’ll be remembered as the greatest individual rivalry in football history. There won’t be another couple of players like them along anytime soon.
https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Lionel_Messi

 

It’s barmy. We nearly always get battered by Spanish teams in Europe & not just the big two, more often than not Athletico Madrid, Sevilla, Valencia, Bilbao, Villarreal have beaten our sides. We just spend the most money whilst they use the money to develop more talent.

If you’re the best or one of the best players in the world then you want to play for Real or Barca, the only exceptions are players like Gerrard at Liverpool, Scholes at Man Utd, Terry at Chelsea, Muller & Neuer at Bayern who are academy products or fans of the clubs they play for.

No one moves to test themselves in this age, the only reason Ronaldo went to Man Utd was because he didn’t have interest from Real. If he was in Madrid’s academy he’d have never left just like Messi at Barca.

 

I never said they'd won it, I said they performed well in world cups. Eusebio scored 9 in 66. Two against Brazil, 4 in the quarter final, 1 against England in the Semis.

Puskas scored in an 8-3 victory over Germany and broke his ankle but still played in the final and scored.

Messi has scored 6 world cup goals over 4 world cups against Serbia and Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Iran and Nigeria. All his goals have come in the group stages, never in the knockout games.

In my first post in this thread I wrote "Football fans, and by that I mean fans of football, people with Sky subscriptions who would watch any football, those for whom the game itself is their passion, not just the club they support, cannot believe there a people who don't rate Messi that highly."

And I've received replies from a lot of football fans telling me how good Messi is. But hardcore football fans are a minority and they don't get to decide who reaches legendary status. The population at large does that and it's based on waltzing through the entire England team and slotting the ball in to the back of the net after putting the first one in with your hand, or trying to lob the keeper from the half way line and performing the most outrageous dummy on another keeper to get round him, or getting past a player with the most amazing turn that the move is named after you. I haven't mentioned the name of any of those three players, but you'll know who I'm talking about. Describe to me a magical Messi moment that everyone remembers to such an extent that you don't even have to say his name.

 

Totally agree mate, where as the goal machine that is Ronaldo will definitely fire Portugal to the final,

 

What exactly would it prove? If he went to Italy it would Juventus. France PSG. Germany Bayern. Here it would be Man City. So he would just have the same people saying it's easy in the best team.
He plays for one of the 2 biggest clubs in the world. Why would he leave while ever they want him?

 

The Messi moment will be remembering that player who dominated club football for 15 years or so.
Now maybe there are a lot of people in this country who don't get to see him play and they won't. It's more a shame for them I'd say.

 

I don’t get this about Messi ‘being found out’ take any of the alternatives being offered up and put them in an ‘ordinary ‘ like the current Argentinian one team and they would struggle.
Thing is loads of great players in the past have had different attributes, wingers who could work down the wing leaving opponents baffled in their wake, midfielders who could switch play at key times or others that battled hard and inspired others to greater things, strikers who seemingly did bugger all until suddenly they did and the ball was in the back of the net, defenders who were a virtual rock. Some even just went about their job quietly and very efficiently.Some of them could turn a game solo, some couldn’t but most were in really good teams when their memorable moments occurred.

 

I've not been watching the world cup so cant comment on either if they've been up for it or if their teams have been poor.

They are undoubtedly world class, both of them. But for me, neither get close to being the best ever player. Maradona and Pele are still way ahead.

They were in eras where tackles were allowed, diving wasn't even thought of, and players could intentionally try and injure and still not be sent off. They were targeted with physicality and intimidation, and they still shone. Now, a tackle is pretty much illegal so Messi and Ronaldo have more opportunity as defenders are hamstrung.

Ronaldo and Messi as good as they are have spent about half their careers rolling in the turf. In terms of Messi in particular, at Barca, he was supported by an amazing midfield, so good they assisted a period of Spanish dominance in Euros and World Cups.

Both the best players of their generation, but neither have impacted on a World Cup like Pele or Maradona.

 

I wouldn't say never as I haven't seen every game he has ever played, but Messi doesn't really dive or roll around on the floor.

 

What a strange thread this is.

Imagine scoring 563 goals in 669 games at club level and 81 goals in 151 games for your country (wiki stats so apologies if incorrect) but being “found out” at a World Cup where the Argentina squad was woeful and the manager had no clue what he was doing.

I’m not Messi’s biggest fan (or Ronaldo’s for that fact) but I don’t see how anyone can argue what they’ve done in the past decade or so.

 

There are some seriously good strikers on that list. Ronaldo & Messi are in the top 10, which historically is probably about right. They are both exceptional players.