Mandelson...

If we just keep choosing the “lesser of two evils,” then nothing ever really changes — it just locks us into a cycle of compromise where the bar keeps sinking lower. At some point, we have to vote for what we believe in, not just against what we fear.

I don’t feel the slightest bit responsible for the election of any party, other than the one I vote for.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/no-10-ap...curity-concerns-sky-news-understands-13428814

 

It just gets worse.

 

Agreed. Well said.

 

I think some of these puns are a Beethoven the top

 

I have some sympathy with the point of simply voting with heart. And I'd argue probably in the years up to say 2019, it had merit, even if it returned tory governments.

People will vote however they want to vote.

Sadly now though, I believe we're at a crucial tipping point.

This week, the Guardian have been running a series of stories about DePfeffel Johnson and some of the alleged corruption and cronyism that has garnered him millions of pounds post leaving office. Further examples of breaching the ministerial code and further charges of breaking covid laws. Links with Saudi, Russia and dodgy Americans.

It's absolutely not seen the light of day through any other media conduit than the guardian. Not even a glimpse on sky. Including the paper review where they quickly breezed through the guardian front cover.

Similarly Farage's dodgy dealings and tax avoidance.

The media is complicit in pumping right and far right diatribe down our throats and the amount of pro Trump US propaganda is incredible in it's volume. All the moreso when there were plenty calling to see less from the EU pre 2016. Now we hardly know they exist other than supporting Ukraine and when individual countries have opportunity to vote in far right governments.

Every day, more Trump. Press conferences, speakers daily comments, a bit of Marjorie Taylor Greene for good measure. The last few days this Kirk guy who I've never even heard of. When the PM of Japan was assassinated we heard so little in comparison. And he had a real position of power in the world order. Yet today Kirks descriptor was "conservative activist and political commentator". There was a time where far right extremist would more accurately have been used.

Compounded with this is an attempt to play down any effort of scrutiny into the shady workings of the far right. Immigration risk is ramped up. Just like it was before the EU referendum.

At the next election, instead of the campaign to get the tories out (which explains the low vote share for the winning party as people voted for the most likely to unseat a sitting tory), it has to be keep reform out.

If we thought Johnson and Truss were disastrous, we've seen nothing yet.

Trump shows us what we might expect. It's the same script. Wage war on truth and decency. Fight the "left". Fight the judicial system. Hijack all levers of power. Upend governing and societal norms. Pick enemies. Sow fear. Lie. Profit. Cut taxes for the rich and services for the poor. Dismantle the NHS. Allege prior corruption. Dodge scrutiny. Prevent scrutiny.

So while I wish voting with heart and preference was the best route next time round. I fear waking up to a far right/increasingly authoritarian form of fascism daily would make anyone wish they'd voted to block them from a seat of power if it came to that.

 

That’s a tad idealistic. You can only play the game you’re in. At the next GE, as things stand, the choice is clear. A vote for Labour gives us a ***** Labour government. A vote for anyone else gives us a catastrophic Reform government. Is that the change you want? Cos that’s the only change on offer unless Labour improve or the voting system is changed in the meantime.

I voted for Labour at the last GE (and Starmer at the leadership election) and I’m very disappointed with them, but if you take me back to the election I would vote for them again, because I can remember the last Tory government and they were far, far worse. Ideally I would like to see a big change in how Labour are governing the country. Ideally I would like Andy Burnham in No.10. Ideally I would like to see all the people that have been kicked out or have left the party come back into it and the party listen to all sides and start making peoples’ lives better. Ideally I’d like Starmer to open his eyes, looks at where he’s leading us and do something about it, and soon. I really can’t see any of that happening right now though, so the next election could be a straight choice between what we have now and total catastrophe. It’s ****, but we have a FPTP system and that’s where the country is right now and I don’t see an alternative choice being available that will stop Reform getting in, just others taking votes that have zero chance of winning, like the Greens or Corbyn’s new offering, that will just split the vote and leave it wide open for Reform.

The rise of Farage and the far right should have been stopped 9 years ago, when Vote Remain made a mess of their campaign, due to one complacent party leader and another who wanted the other side to win. There was then another opportunity that was tossed away by the stupid Liberal leader who really thought they could win an election. The Tories were on the verge of collapsing and splitting in two. All the opposition needed to do was keep the Tories in the minority government they had found themselves, unable to get any bills passed. Another few months and the Tory party would have split apart, leaving it wide open for an election to be forced before the far right could get organised, giving us a Corbyn led Labour victory, either with or without teaming up with the Lib Dems. But the Lib Dem leader had visions of grandeur and for the second time in less than a decade the Lib Dems handed the Tories the keys.

So like I say, the choice is ****, unless you have a realistic alternative I am unaware of? Voting for what you believe in sounds great in theory and should be what we all do in an ideal world. But the world is now as far from ideal as it has ever been in our lifetime and I certainly wouldn’t take any comfort from sitting here in 5 years time watching Farage and co turning this country into Trumpland, whilst saying I voted for what I believed in. The next GE is much more important than that.

 

I’ll vote for the party I’m a member of, a party I pay into, the party whose policies and ideals most closely match my own. That’s democracy.

I would never suggest anyone vote a certain way. It’s a personal choice.

I’ve suffered the Tories long enough, suffered Vote Leave. My politics clearly aren’t the politics of the many. But that’s life.

 

Nothing as far as I know.

 

‘Fingals Cave’ is one of his best works.

 

I can see tactical voting being even more important at the next GE than it was last year. With the possibility of a majority government being elected with less than 30% of the popular vote. I can see lifelong Tories voting Labour and Lifelong Labour supporters voting Conservative to keep Farage out. I hope Carol Vorderman is going to update her web site from "Stopthetories.vote" to "stopFarage.vote".

 

Who was it that said. " The best form of Govt is dictatorship tempered with assassination"
These days I start to wonder if that is actually a valid PoV!

 

This is no suprise given he's been disgraced in public office twice in the past.

 

We'll have to disagree squire. I think its now getting to the stage of 'vote Labour get Reform'. The Labour Party is that bad. True, there's one or two decent things that have happened but the attacks they've made on their own base are stupid. They also do not have a narrative or an idea except some spurious call for 'growth'. They are leaking members, leaking support to the right and leaking support to the left. In my opinion they've already lost the next election even though its nearly 4 years away. Progressive people should vote for a progressive party otherwise we will get Reform. That's the real choice - progressive or Reform. Labour has been ruined by Starmer and McSweeney and its Labour that has handed the initiative to Reform. Simply saying 'vote Labour next time' won't work when only c. 25% of the electorate voted for them last time. Vote Green, an up and coming progressive party with a combative leader...... In my opinion. Labour are relying on people to be so scared of Reform that they'll vote Labour by default. I don't think that will work.
Anyroad, all the best.

 

Very well put but the political landscape is moving fast and old allegiances have broken down. Its no longer 'vote Labour to keep the right out' as Labour are visionless and just as managerial of the system as were the Tories. People need to ween themselves off this idea that Labour is progressive. Its not anymore under Starmer. Its arguably more pro-austerity than the Tories. In this splintered political environment I suggest all who vote should vote for the best progressive candidate ( usually Green). I was a Labour guy through and through but no more. They're visionless, morally bankrupt and corrupt. Its actually the ideal time for a real progressive party to present an alternative. A good narrative will defeat Farage. Labour can't.

 

Yes - they're hard to Handel.

 

May be of interest Senedd Cymru - prediction after 2026 election

SENEDD MEMBERS
Now --- after 2026 Election
Reform 0 --- 32
Labour 47 --- 27
Plaid 21 --- 27
Conservative 28 --- 8

(with apologies for fkn banging on about Cymru again)

 

Except that that vote is potentially split between the Greens and the Sultanas. And both would want out of NATO?

 

Its nice to see you back posting. Regards.