Keir Starmer

The issue isn't people are coming. Firstly it's the massive rise in numbers from our historic immigration numbers, our infrastructure is creaking and breaking apart at the seams. That's not putting the blame on immigration, it's the massive under investment and development of everything from housing, transport and health care. Secondly for many arriving on the small boats, we have no idea of their backgrounds or indeed their intentions and it does put some fear into decent people. All for a fair system being implemented, but this crazy setup we have where someone can arrive on a small boat then be greeted with more help from the government etc than someone already in the UK going through a hard time doesn't sit right.

One of my concerns is that it's only a matter of time before areas of Barnsley start to closely resemble places like Page Hall in Sheffield.

 

I know the backgrounds of the vast majority of those characters arrested for rioting outside hotels etc. Three quarters were estimated to have had previous convictions for weapons, violence or drugs.

A third had previous convictions for domestic abuse.

As for Barnsley, can someone let me know how many asylum seekers or immigrants have made it to the town? I haven’t lived there for 13 years but when I worked there for 8 years, I can’t say I noticed any sort of influx. It’s quite possibly one of the whitest places I know.

 

Almost proving the point in Barnsley. Bucking the trend of a dying town centre, break down of social cohesion in other areas like as described Page Hall, Dewsbury to name a couple. My point was it's only a matter of time before we do see an influx and then when we witness the same brand of mass immigration and multi culturalism, it will be interesting to see the opinions on here at that point. Nothing wrong with controlled immigration, built around a carefully planned infrastructure but our current way of doing things is tearing the country apart.

 

"... and disaster capitalism"

 

Framing immigration and multiculturalism as something that will inevitably “tear the country apart” isn’t just inaccurate, it edges into dubious territory. Town centres have declined because of austerity, online retail, and lack of investment — not because people from different backgrounds moved in.

It’s easy to scapegoat immigrants, but the reality is they work, pay taxes, start businesses, and keep public services running. The real threat to cohesion is peddling the idea that diversity is a problem in itself. That kind of narrative fuels division far more than immigration ever could.

Education is key.

 

Well, got to disagree. It's exactly what has impacted areas like Page Hall. Do you think running street battles between different communities there is down to austerity, online retail and lack of investment? Do the people in those communities take pride in their habitat or do they make the conscious decisions to turn the areas into rat infested slums? Services exist as they do in Barnsley, difference is, the social demographic in Barnsley have decided to try and both uphold law and order and a sense of pride for their local surroundings.



Image is literally every street in that area. It's definitely a small minority who think this is acceptable in probably any area of Barnsley. You can throw money into education as much as you want. If these communities don't want to take pride in their areas then social decline will always win.

 

Also just to add, I would argue the fact that 100% before Labours open door policy was implemented and the Torys made it worse, I would agree that the majority would work, pay taxes etc. I would be very surprised if that is the case for the majority now. Even the government has admitted that they don't really know the exact number for multiple reasons be-it illegal immigration or people overstaying and dropping off the radar. If that is the case, those people are 100% not contributing to taxes etc.

 

The decline in pubs started when the breweries started selling beer to the supermarkets affording them the luxury of selling their products cheaper than the pubs with off sales licences couple that with the breweries almost doubling the rents they were charging us.

 

You may not have read the earlier comment, so I assume you think, or are suggesting that the Dublin Agreement would have allowed us to reduce numbers, but in actual fact the Dublin Agreement caused us to receive more people than actually left. Not that that's a complaint from me, rules are rules, but no-one can reasonably trumpet Dublin 111 as an effective way to reduce migration to the UK, as it has proven not to be...the Govt's 1 in 1 out agreement with France at least gives parity.

From the HoC Library
''outgoing transfer requests in 2019:
• The UK received 2,236 requests from EU member states to accept transfers of individuals to the UK, and 714 transfers took place.
The majority of these (496) were from Greece.
• The UK made 3,259 transfer requests to EU member states, and 263 transfers took place. 40% (104) went to Germany and 20% (53) went to France.


Eurostat figures for 2015-2018.

 

No I can read, thanks.

I am saying it was naturally dissuading people from arriving directly to apply for asylum here, because the process to apply for asylum in the EU is to apply and be processed at port of arrival... In whatever country within the EU they arrive at. It literally protected us from the waves of asylum seekers now doing anything they can to set foot on our soil at which point they can legally apply for asylum here. France and Germany did the bulk of the work filtering out those who attempted to travel this far back then. Some still did get through but in lower numbers than we are seeing today. Thus we weren't having to fill hotels and other spaces with them while we try to process their application and allow for appeals - something we are bound by international law to do.

We left the EU and therefore Dublin III on 31st December 2020. Want to hazard a guess when the numbers of direct asylum seekers started to climb significantly?

 

You need to look at the data for other European countries to form a conclusion...in reality virtually the whole of Europe has seen a massive increase on a yearly basis.
According to your chart, asylum applications in the UK between 2022 and 2023 went up by c3000 applications. Between 2022 and 2023 asylum applications in the EU went up by 18% to over 1.1m applications. I accept that is over the EU 27 , but some countries received few if any applications.

From Europarl.europa.eu




You can see from this graph ( although it only includes first time applicants) that it does appear that the spur for migration into Europe was Merkel's open door policy of 2015. Applications in the first year alone being more than the previous seven years combined.
As you can see applications to the EU also climbed significantly from 2020.

 

Fair enough. Updated figures - UK figures vary slightly as some of the previous ones pulled from projections

The data sources are Eurostat and the UK home office:



Happy?

 

I don't think the rise in gas electricity, employers NI contributions or minimum wage rises have helped. Neither did covid.

It was no suprise that Sainsbury's morrisions and Asda all shut cafes and hot food counters and cut back on staff after the hikes. I could go on with other businesses and high streets closing.

 

What’s happened in places like Page Hall can’t just be explained as people “choosing” to live in squalor – the problems there come from a mix of overcrowded housing, poor landlord practices, overstretched council services after years of austerity, and rapid population turnover, which makes it harder to build the kind of settled, stable community pride you see in places like Barnsley.

So yes. I think a lack of investment, austerity plays a significant role in the issues you mention.

What are you putting it down to?

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/915732/immigrant-employment-rate-uk/

 

I'm not sure why you've made the sarcastic comment, it wasn't necessary, you asserted that Dublin 111 was the answer, I've merely pointed out that the Dublin 111 agreement wasn't capable of reducing UK migration like you suggested, and that mass migration is not a purely UK issue like so many people on both sides of the discussion think.

 

And I proved with statistics that since we left the EU and Dublin III that the number of asylum applicants proportional to the total to the EU increased significantly. Theresa may even alluded to that being a massive concern when trying to negotiate the initial deal, but once Johnson booted her out he just powered through and took his pyrrhic victory rather than actually coming to an agreement with the EU to either remain part of, or maintain a similar arrangement to Dublin III

 

There's page hall Sheffield, Harehills Leeds is similar. I imagine you could go to every big city and they would be a pagehall area. Is it all the landlords and councils fault? I'm not sure.

 

I'm going back some 40 odd years, when the rot actually started the steady decline and downfall for the pub trade, then I think in the 90s the Tories realised pubs were a hot bed for, Labour voters and therefore set about further demise of the pub trade

 

There are lots of areas like that up and down the UK. I don’t think that’s even being debated. There have always been ‘sh*tholes’. I was brought up in Barnsley. I was lucky to be an Elsecar lad which wasn’t bad, unless you dared to go round Welland Crescent. Athersley, I lived there for years. Horrendously grim. Grimey, Kendray etc. These were bleak places. No immigrants. Loads of streets like the one shared by @MDG though.

I spent six months in Islington in my late teens. I’ve spent a summer in Glasgow. Eye opening. And I live in Bradford. But in a rural village where my in-laws are farmers who own most of the land. I’m blessed. But there are absolutely shocking areas in this city. And yes, they are the areas where the poorest live. Which includes a lot of people from overseas.

I’m not suggesting everything is a bed of roses. And there’ll be awful people amongst the population. Same for wherever you want to talk about. But those running the country are who I point my finger at, by and large.

And again, it’s not one of the biggest issues that annoys me. Instead of pointing at the Afghans here fleeing the Taliban, I look at how they came to that decision. And why.

Far too much context and nuance to just go “immigrants are bad because X place is a sh*thole”.