I see things like this and am always reminded by the saying "Fascism doesn't start with concentration camps, that's where it ends.....". They all need smashing into oblivion.
Yes, I posted a picture of my form 54 in 1972 and then found that someone else had already posted the same picture.
Dalestyke: "In terms of conduct during the second WW equating the Nazis and the Soviets in the same breath is a distortion of the truth. Really? Maybe you should take that up with Timothy Snyder. Timothy Snyder is Professor of History at Yale University. He is a member of the Committee on Conscience of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, a permanent fellow for the Institute of Sciences and sits on the advisory Council of the Yivo Institute for Jewish Research. “In the middle of Europe in the middle of the 20th century, the Nazis and the Soviet regimes murdered some fourteen million people.” Timothy Snyder. Bloodlands: Europe between Hitler and Stalin. The premise, title of his book and the opening sentence seems to equate the two.
Which bit? Its displayed as an addition to my post rather than reply and as far as I can see is this Distorting history and viewing it from the prism of 2021 is why so often the human race doesn't learn the lessons from the past, or with the current generations, forgets or never knew those lessons. In terms of conduct during the second WW equating the Nazis and the Soviets in the same breath is a distortion of the truth. Are you referring to distorting history? And if so are you calling Snyder a revisionist?
Well if you are serious in your question? I was accusing you of distorting history. To answer your other question. The relevant bit of my post was "In terms of conduct during the second WW". I wasn't apologizing or seeking to justify Stalin's conduct from the 1920s to the 1950s'. I was suggesting that looking back on what happened during the conflict between Nazi Germany and the USSR (which was by some distance the defining conflict during the whole of that war) from the comfortable position of 2021 was ridiculous. You have to appreciate the situation AT THAT TIME. Those around at that time didn't haven't the luxury of thinking 'I don't like either of those 2 nasty Dictators, I'm going to write a strongly worded letter to my MP suggesting we don't support either side". I would suggest that the decision to support the Soviets was by some margin, the better of the two choices. The sacrifices made by the ordinary men and women of that Country are largely the reason we can have this discussion. I'd guess that if (as too many seem to think these days) that 'the wrong side won the war' and the Nazis had succeeded, then we wouldn't be having this conversation. On a related point, understanding what was happening and trying to understand the mindset and the reasons why certain actions took place is pretty critical. When the Soviets got the upper hand and advanced towards Germany they were brutal in their treatment of their enemy. We can argue the wrongs and rights of that (as we can for the Allied advance on the Western Front) but what isn't up for discussion is the fact that the Nazis saw the soviets as a Sub Species and by the time the war concluded had managed to kill around 28 million (estimates vary) men, women and children. That may go some way to explain (though not excuse) the attitude of many Soviet troops and it certainly goes someway to explain (though again not justify) why, post war, the Soviets made sure that they had a buffer of friendly regimes surrounding the Country. Context matters and recognizing the circumstances of the time is critical to understanding. It may help us all to get along a little better, though even as a dyed in the wool liberal, i would not extend that understanding to anyone espousing fascism today.
I have had the absolute pleasure of meeting this lady. Ibby Knill is an Auschwitz survivor. She spoke for more than an hour and the entire room was captivated. It really did bring home the atrocities that were committed in a very recent time. If you get a chance read her books, they are amazing. https://www.hmd.org.uk/resource/iby-knill-an-auschwitz-promise/
Something is going wrong in posting replies. Dunno whether it's my end of not but it just adds to the post you're replying to. So in response to Dalestyke above: On the whole there’s not a lot in that I’d argue with. It still doesn’t detract from the fact of both were murderous regimes. Yours is a British viewpoint, much like mine, based on the things we were taught. There is one thing though. As you say, circumstances of the time is critical to understanding. That’s why I’m not viewing the conflict between Nazi Germany and the USSR from the comfortable position of being British in 2021. I’m viewing it from the position of an ordinary boy who was there. Who saw things happen to his family I cannot describe at the hands of the Soviets before they died in the Gulag. A boy who was then abused by the Nazis (as a Slav he was a ‘subhuman’) fought for the British and could never go home because the part of his country he came from had been absorbed into the Soviet Union. Instead, he found himself a refugee in Britain – no family, no home, no country - couldn’t speak the language and where, despite his country being an ally of the Britain, he was abused in the street for being a fascist thanks to Soviet propaganda and told to go home to a country that the British had given away to the Soviets, who’d kill him if he did return. That boy became my father. And as you say, the sacrifice of ordinary people should be remembered. It’s just that where my father came from, most of the ordinary people never told stories that could be remebered. They were dead. “In terms of conduct during the second WW equating the Nazis and the Soviets in the same breath is a distortion of the truth.” My father is no longer around but can you begin to imagine what he’d make of those words? If what I said is revisionism then so be it. Distorting history? It’s what happened. It’s my history. It just doesn’t sit comfortably with one we all know. Still, it was worth it. We won. Whoever ‘we’ are.
I won't even begin to try to address your points regarding your own family experience. Once someone brings in family history, it's a bit like playing the trump card and can't be argued with, nor would i disrespect you by trying to do so. What I would say is; Don't make the assumption that I'm looking at the issue from "a British viewpoint" - even if you are - that would be incorrect. We'll have to just agree to disagree about the conduct of the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany being on a par during WW2.
No problem. And I am assuming you're British or a least born in this country. It's all about different viewpoints. In research I have gone back to as many original sources as possible. In fact the editorial from The Barnsley Chronicle on the situation in Poland in September 1939 is fascinating in terms of what people thought at that point of time. Completely goes against the way history was re-written in 1941. I'll have to dig it out.
By the way I'd never make the usual common mistake of equating Soviet with Russian either. Just in case you have Russian heritage.
it is fascinating and a little alarming, about how the views of people at a period in the past can be re-written out of history when it doesn’t fit the ‘new narrative’. So many of these relate, unsurprisingly, to the 2WW. Britain’s shameful conduct re Czechoslovakia and Poland are one example, a Finnish army of 300,000 giving one and half million Soviet soldiers a ‘good kicking’ is another, the USA being so disinterested in world events (sound familiar) that their land army was only the 18th!! Largest in the world and if they hadn’t had such a strong Pacific fleet they could have been humiliated in the East. My favourite is Churchill. Look how he is viewed now in 2021. Practically untouchable. Read the accounts from military personnel and the general public in July 1945 - just weeks after the end of the war in Europe - and you begin to understand why (rightly or wrongly) he was vilified and hated by so many British people.
Have you read The Maisky Diaries? It's the diary of the Soviet ambassador to the UK 1935 - 43. It really is a fascinating insight into Churchill and London in the run up to war and the first years. Highly recommended.
For the avoidance of doubt - I don't! I do find it quite interesting to see how Russia, when it had different paths it could chose post 1991, has gone down the 'Strong Man Right wing dictatorship' route. Disappointing to say the least. There are enough Countries that run that line - or would like to!
Wife's grandma's family fled Vienna in '36. Only one other relative who remained in Austria survived. Edit- even more chilling when you look at the family tree and see the names.
Went to Dachau a few years ago........wow!!! An unbelievable experience........the surrounding area is relatively busy with tourists milling about, soon as we walked through the gates it was sheer silence, you could hear a pin drop, a swear I didn’t even see a bird flying over.......the place get of death, it’s hard to imagine how evil some people could be!! I read on a board I’m the grounds that after the war the local Germany folk were ordered to assist in the clearing of the camp to show them how cruel there own people had been to another race who had some boring wrong to them!!! A very moving trip.
