What about a female transgender black manager ?

That's bonkers... It's not as if any of us would discriminate against Wednesday fans, would we?

 

Joey Barton anyone. ?

 

must be quite hard that in Barnsley

 

I remember first interview with careers master on leaving school first question what pit does thi dad work at ****?

 

We can’t do that even if it’s obvious a candidate wouldn’t fit in the team. Our interviews are competency based and every answer gets a score out of 5. There’s a threshold to pass the interview, if more than one candidate passes, the one with the best score gets the job.

I guess assuming someone wouldn’t fit in is discrimination.

 

The notion that the 'best person for the job' is appointed is a myth.
Most people interviewed for jobs are perfectly capable of doing the job and if they can do the job why not appoint them?

Take football many BAME players - few BAME managers.
Do you just accept that as the way things are or do you take steps to even things out?
If the latter than you are looking at ring-fencing some jobs for BAME applicants.

And all those who 'Took the Knee' who support the BLM movement should support the ring-fencing of BAME applicants for some jobs.

 

Ring fencing for a group of people thus ruling out another group is nothing short of discrimination (albeit for the best of intentions) i.e. trying to right 'historical and current wrongs' against a certain group of people.

There are a number of issues I have with this. Firstly, two wrongs don't make a right. For every positive there is a negative. We are talking about the impact on individuals... So Person A is in the BAME category and Person B is not. Person B has more experience, more qualifications and is a much better fit for the post but the application never gets beyond the first stage having been filtered out' by the ring fencing (positive discrimination) policy. Acceptable? Hmmmm! Yet if it was other way around (i.e. BAME applicants need not apply??) people would/should rightly call out discrimination and the lawyers would have a field day.
Logically it is just as big an injustice which ever way round it is and simply reinforces the current negative views of some who need to rethink their attitudes towards those who they consider 'different'. Positive bias in favour of a defined group , however well intentioned, is discrimination - there is no other word for it. You cannot call it one thing for one group and a different name for another based on perceptions of how to right the injustices in the World. A level playing field cannot be achieved by simply tilting it the opposite way to how it currently leans.

What we can agree on is the ultimate aim to remove bias and prejudice based on race creed and colour. What we disagree on is the method for achieving that objective.

 

Wrong on so many levels. Giving someone a job purely on skin colour or race is discrimination. You don't end racism with discrimination. Rather than giving black people jobs purely because they're black (how degrading is that) why not use a form of blind interview where you don't even know the applicants race or gender?

And as for football being an example. Well as as already been explained many times, when black former footballers simply aren't taking up the option of coaching courses in big enough numbers or are dropping out then maybe THAT is why there are so few black managers rather than football clubs who happily employ thousands of black players being racist against black men? Perhaps we should be looking into why they are failing to take up the PFA funded courses available to them and why they drop out.

You any get the job if you aren't qualified for it. Rather than looking at the stats of how many former players are black compared to managers isn't a better stat to look at how many former black players are qualified coaches and unable to get a coaching job and compare that to white former players?

 

Some of the most qualified people in companies. Can’t do the job. Why? Cos they’ve not come through the ranks and learned their trade so to speak. So I would chose experience when it gets to the top positions. Over qualifications.
Some of the best coaches in the world didn’t go onto get qualifications for the role.
An accountant gets qualifications. Becomes a junior and promotes through the ranks. Simon Davey. Qualifications coming out of his ears. Nuff said.

 

That's why Kevin Pietersen never played for South Africa.

 

My bosses are blinded by degrees. I’ve to really push if I want to promote a time served operative into a management position ahead of someone on the graduate program or recruiting someone with a degree. They don’t understand that competence isn’t only measured by passing exams, one of our least fit to manage managers has qualifications coming out of his ears but couldnt apply what he’d excelled at in exams. As for our BAME profile and our white privilege unconscious bias dont even get me started

 

Where do you start though I am in agreement of most of what you say. But when will we actually start getting BAME into the workforce now. On an equal footing.

Education is the way in most things. But things need to start now. Or things will just drag on and on. Will be decades if we just leave it to education. I haven’t got any quick fix answers. Maybe positive discrimination is not the full answer. But what are the alternatives. ?

If I was not able to have a frank discussion facing the interviewee. I’m not sure you’d be able to judge a person’s character for example. You may as well just look at the cv and select.

Not one who does interviews by the way. But my work life experience would probably be better than some interviewers who know nothing about a role they’re interviewing for. Concentrating on H&S. Aptitude. Seems if you can satisfy those demands you get the role. But may be poor at the job.

 

what jobs would you ring fence a BAME person for ?

 

thanks red24/7 -
I would ring-fence jobs where BAME people are under-represented. I would focus on senior posts in education, police, senior management etc. if a BAME person can do them job then give it to them.

Ring fencing isn't perfect but how else do you try to level things out?

I would ring-fence the post of next BFC manager to BAME applicants.
We all support Kick Racism Out of football - endless posts on here about support for BLM for 'Taking the Knee.' -- why on earth would we object to a manager from BAME heritage?

 

Agree 100% Exactly the points I raised on post #27

 

Like you I agree there is no quick fix. But your short sentence above i.e. " On an equal footing" is the point. Applying artificial 'quick fixes' like quotas and 'ring fencing' discriminatory morally and almost certainly, if applied to BAME groups, illegal, will do absolutely nothing to change certain people perceptions in the medium or long term and probably make things worse.
Education and changing people's perceptions is not a quick fix and we need to be in it for the a long haul. People celebrate the fact that the U.S had a black president which in the USA in the '50's would have been laughed at, but it is depressing when you watch certain films and TV dramas to realise in spite of the odd example life for minorities has changed little in 70 years and under this president thing have gone backwards. Change is needed but not through reverse discrimination.

 

You seem to have ignored posts 27# and 28# or at least not responded to them. So how would you get around anti discrimination laws to ring fence jobs for BAME? It would be illegal in the same way as advertising jobs for 'heterosexual white men only' would be (and rightly so). In any case it would not work in the medium or long term.