Sorry to bring it up again, but I have a question for the Vegans/Veggies on here

Nope. I am here, I exist, I have to eat something, and there's going to be some damage caused somewhere along the line.

I feel that being vegan is enough. It doesn't feel like a personal sacrifice any more, because I don't miss meat, but it used to in those first difficult weeks of being vegetarian (and again during the first difficult weeks of being vegan when I couldn't have cheese and whatever).

I'm conscious of the fruit/pesticide/slave labour angle, but I don't care enough to do anything about it. I am one human out of eight billion, and I feel I have done everything I can reasonably do to minimise the evidence I was ever here. Could I do more? Yes. Could most of us do more? Yes. I could spend 24 hours a day checking that my fruit doesn't have anything sprayed on it, or that it comes from the UK, but I do not.

I'm a childless (through choice, I don't want them because I value my freedom too much and it's terribly unfair to bring something into the world which for as long as you can remember you have been against having) vegan who makes the vast majority of journeys by public transport (I assume but do not know for sure that this is less carbon-heavy than driving a car. This is inadvertent, though, because I would kill myself in minutes out on the road and as such have no choice in the matter.) Through choice and through fate, I think I've done my bit. I may change my mind further down the line and try to do more but, for now, I am content.

It's the animals I'm bothered about. As said, I am childless, and hence what happens to humanity in, say, 50 years is not going to be my problem, or that of any of my descendants. If I am helping animals, saving them, being a friend to them, then I'm happy with my decisions. Or, more prosaically, if I am clearing my own conscience by avoiding eating them, then I am happy with my decisions.

I don't want the guilt, can't live with the guilt, must do everything in my power to avoid the guilt of having eaten something pretty and intelligent, and so that's why I am vegan. Someone else is going to eat the meat I avoid but that's for them to be guilty about (or not) and is bugger-all to do with me.

If the pesticides on the fruit kill me, so be it. If, as per SuperTyke's assertion, a vegan diet is not healthy, so be it. There's no turning back.

 

I love eating meat, it’s the dogs ********

 

At the end of the day, unless you're going to be self sufficient and grow all your own vegetables in your garden, supplementing your diet with eggs from your pet chickens and milk from the cow that lives in your garage if you so choose, you're going to be doing some environmental or human rights damage somewhere along the line. That doesn't mean we should just stop trying. Making informed choices about the food we eat is extremely important. Overall, buying local foods whenever possible should surely be our first objective. If, like me, you don't feel guilty about consuming sentient beings from time to time, that SHOULD be sustainable organic meat and fish from sustainable stocks, with as few food miles on it as possible. Is this realistic for most people to stick to every time? Probably not. I only ever buy meat from known sources, which is why if I'm out and about I tend to avoid it. But what about at other people's houses? "Sorry I can't eat your meat. I'm not a vegetarian or vegan, it's because I don't know where it was sourced from." What a complete tw@t I'd look like.

I'm also trying to reduce dairy consumption whenever possible, due to the environmental and welfare issues of dairy farming. But is almond milk any less damaging for the environment, once water consumption, food miles and worker exploitation have been taken into account? No cows are harmed, this is true, so I feel much better about myself (plus it makes a cracking latte). But I'm not sure whether overall it's much "better" than dairy milk.

We all know about the environmental and human impact of the avocado trade. I love avocados, they're really nutritious, and I don't see anyone growing them in St Petersburg or Penistone. What should I do? Give them up too?

Beer. A nice local pint from the local brewery. What could go wrong? Except most hops are now imported from the USA or Australia and New Zealand, so that's a shed load more food miles. And, as I found out recently on a tour of Bateman's brewery, both hop growing and beer production are two of the most water-intensive things you can think of. For every pint of beer we drink, another 99 pints are used in its production. Hardly an environmentally responsible activity, this brewing and boozing lark.

I guess I'd just better stay at home today. And read by candle light. While eating only the basil which I've grown myself on the kitchen window sill.

 

I get that veggies and vegan don’t like the killing of animals for meat but what’s going to happen to these animals if more and more people choose to give up meat, farmers are not going to keep these animals if they can’t get money from them so these will either be turned out into the wild and left to fend for themselves(using the land that would be needed for arable crops) or they will just simply become an exhibit in a petting zoo before dying out

 

My T-bone steak died of natural causes.

 

Perhaps we could all eat the additional shale created by coastal erosion. I once caught part of a documentary where 4 fellows( I think they were from Yorkshire) we’re discussing getting up an hour before they went to bed and eating a handful of hot gravel. I never understood why it didn’t catch on.

 

Because of global warming, animal welfare,intensive farming methods etc etc, I've decided that, as a matter of principle I won't be eating anything anymore!!!
If you like a bet, I'm also 2nd favourite in the slimmer of the year contest!

 

I think the discussion on air miles and food sources is equally if not more important than Meat vs Vegetarianism/Veganism when it comes to environmental issues.

I fully understand (and respect) people who for ethical reasons opt for Veganism. However, trying to factor in the environment as a reason just won't wash.

1 The argument regarding cattle being responsible in part for global warming due to methan production fails to consider that methane breaks down after 8 years into water and C02. Scientific papers from a number of different sources (as per an earlier thread) conclude that a vegetarian diet increases methane production in humans by up to 60 percent and given humans outnumber cattle around 3.5:1 (not enough to fully offset the C02 but I have not seen that factored in to any calculations supporting end to dairy/cattle farming).
2 Meat substitutes often involve complex manufacturing processes and require factories to be built to carry out those processes often using ingredients (some exotic) being imported from various countries Worldwide resulting in huge air miles costs. Meat on the other hand (although this only applies when we look at initiatives like 'zero km' projects such as is gaining momentum here in Italy) means every effort is made to stock shelves with food souced locally. This even applies to medium sized supermarket chains. Butchers by decree display a document on or near the counter that shows the provenance of the meat on sale was reared.
3 The motives of some 'Healthy /Vegan/Veggie food manufatures is often questionable since prices often do not reflect the quality or type of ingredients. As Veganism increases EoS should see prices fall but often, where profit over ethics rules, increasing demand sees prices rise resulting in many people being unable to afford it.

Overall, we have become accustomed to cheap (too cheap) readily available out of season food all year round and advanced logistics. Low standards of animal welfare needs to end even if inevitably it forces prices of certain things up.Healthier eating need not be expensive, We could ALL do with eating less meat and more locally sourced seasonal food even if it does reduce choice but eating better quality (for us and for the animals life experience).
Education should bring back domestic science - teaching people not just about nutrition and fact based stuff but practical 'hands on' selecting creating affordable menus and actual 'cooking' I am aware this cost money but too many people buy only convenience cr*p or buy takeaways because they dont know how to prepare quick cheap meals.

 

Off on a tangent here but how would vegetarians and vegans feel about eating lab grown meat? I know it still uses stem cells and fetal serum from animals to grow the meat but no animals are slaughtered to make it.
Meat is meat so I doubt any would consider it even so.

 

Fair play Baka.. decent post, I don't agree with parts, but like you're personal stance...
Not sure where you get 8 billion on the planet from tho.. but that's a different argument..

 

Humans kill 3 billion animals a year,to feed us or our pets,it’s a scary figure,not much of that meat ever finds its way into a match day pie,so feel you can be vegan and still enjoy a traditional match day

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=pop.....69i57j0l7.2939j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I am probably not far off.

 

Is that a chinese dish?

 

They actually estimate 70 billion land animals alone worldwide. If you think that's about 10x the amount of humans per year, it is pretty shocking.

 

I wonder how many are killed and eaten by animals per year. Must be thousands of billions.