I read that Laurel Hubbard was a junior weightlifter as a male, stopped lifting in 2001, then started again sometime following her transition in 2012 and competed this year as the fourth oldest Olympic weightlifter ever. The fact that she was able to return as an ancient competitor and compete at the top level despite having had 10 years away from the sport is in itself a pretty strong suggestion that there is a real world advantage, in addition to the paper I linked.
Not really. She's 1 competitor. People that fall outside of the 'norms' when it comes to age do happen. Look at the 13 year old skateboarder. The fact that she's not been able to get close to her previous lifts as a junior since transitioning is more indicative I feel. Also the fact that she wasn't able to register a single lift in the Olympics.
The 13 year old skateboarder lost silver to a 12 year old, she isn't an outlier and it isn't comparable. Comparing Hubbard's lifts to her junior lifts is a completely separate question to comparing her lifts to someone who hasn't gone through male puberty. It only proves that she isn't as strong as she once was, it in no way implies that she doesn't have any advantage over someone who didn't go through male puberty.
I'm not saying that I have all the answers, but I've read a lot of papers over the last couple of years on this subject and I do feel confident in my opinion. I remember having an argument with @DannyWilsonLovechild on here a couple of years ago in a thread about Martina Navratilova where I argued many of the points that you've been making here. I've since changed my opinion a lot after seeing a lot of evidence that there is actually not an advantage there.
The debate at elite level is mostly redundant simply because of the amount of hormone tests they have to pass, the issue of fairness centres around those who might miss out because of the inclusion of trans athletes. In this instance an 18 year old girl from Nauru missed out on representing her country at the Olympics because her spot was taken by Hubbard. Easy solution would be for trans athletes not to count towards the number of competitors so nobody misses out. The more challenging issue is amateur level where hormone levels aren't measured, in some states in America you don't need to have started HRT and you can compete. Not sure I'd be best pleased about my girls missing out in those circumstances.
And the knock on effect to that could well be less biological women making it to the professional levels that have only fairly recently opened up to them.
That's the point though, it isn't. Male puberty grants advantages that the hormone suppression can't reverse.
Everyone who beat her didn’t go through male puberty. There’s a 46 year old gymnast, a 66 year old doing dressage, a 58 year old table tennis player and a 59 year old sailor amongst others. They haven’t transitioned and are still competing despite their age. There’s even a 37 year old weightlifter who is planning on going to Paris when they will be 40 so calling 43 ancient is a bit ott. If Laurel hadn’t been a top weightlifter when male and after transitioning suddenly out of nowhere, at an older age then normal, just decided to start from scratch and walked it to the Olympics then you might have a point. However, cis women beat her and older Olympians do exist so it’s not a foregone conclusion at all.
You're comparing her to olympians in different sports, that makes absolutely no sense. And the fact that she didn't win doesn't prove that she had no advantage, it's like saying home advantage doesn't exist in football because Barnsley lost a game at home. I doubt you'll find another weightlifter who took 10 years off lifting and then qualified for the Olympics at 43.
I'm sure Hubbard had no extra motivation at all being transgender. I'm sure she felt she had nothing to prove at all. I'm sure she didn't put in lots of effort, training and huge determination to appear as her true gender at the pinnacle of her sport. I'm sure years of discrimination didn't play any part in motivating her further. She got to the Olympics. She didn't register anything when she got to the finals. I have to look at this story with utter admiration for her. To achieve what she did in the face of adversity and no little hostility.
I completely agree. My point is just that there is an issue which has to be discussed regardless of the fact that it has potentially no wholly satisfactory answer and it might be tempting to pretend the issue doesn't exist.
There is certainly discussion to be had and it's unbelievably complex issue. At this stage though, my personal standpoint is I'd rather we did nothing extra to discriminate against trans people for a notional advantage that we haven't seen transpire in practice.
I definitely think that's a valid position, even in the event that an advantage is evident and leads to a medal. There really is going to be no easy answer.
How many times when watching the Olympics do you hear about "their incredible journey to the games" where an athlete takes a non-traditional path? It seems like almost every athlete when the commentators are speaking about them. People that start their sport late, people that come back from life threatening injuries, people that take breaks, people that lived in the woods for 20 years (I may have made that last one up). My point is that while her journey is unusual, even ignoring her transition, unusual paths happen all the time. So while it would be noteworthy, I wouldn't have been shocked to see a cis woman competing at that age after taking a long break. It's not out of the realms of possibility.
A great phrase that I've just remembered seeing is that while there may be some physical advantages left over from a male puberty, they are negated (and more so) by what I saw greatly described as "a big car with a small engine". So while the muscle mass and bone structure do not completely reverse (although they do reduce greatly), the rest of the body do, which leads to a weaker respiratory system and reduced aerobic capacity, which is why I mentioned many disadvantages earlier.
