Liverpool - we know how it feels

Discussion in 'Bulletin Board' started by Farnham_Red, Oct 19, 2020.

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  1. Farnham_Red

    Farnham_Red Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    Pickfords GBH on Van Dyke wont face retrospective action because it was dealt with at the time

    https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/...n-dijk-injury-tackle-everton-liverpool-730133

    "
    David Coote, reviewing the incident at Stockley Park, then concluded that Pickford’s tackle did not deserve a red card.


    PGMOL have previously apologised for Coote’s decisions as VAR after he failed to send off Tottenham midfielder Giovani Lo Celso for a reckless challenge against Chelsea. A statement in February promised he would “learn” and “certainly reflect” on the game at Stamford Bridge."

    What qualifictions do you need to be a VAR ref because it seems an understanding of what constitutes a career ending assault doesnt appear to be one of them
     
    Farnham_Red, Oct 19, 2020
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  2. Donny Red

    Donny Red Well-Known Member

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    Pickford should have been sent off in my view. It was an extremely poor attempt to stop
    Van Dijk from getting to the ball. Looks like he's going to miss the rest of the season,
    which certainly will have a detrimental effect on Liverpools defensive capabilities as I
    believe it goes without saying, that at this present time, he has to be the best centre
    half in World football.
     
    Donny Red, Oct 19, 2020
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  3. SFOTyke

    SFOTyke Well-Known Member

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    It could have been avoided if we got rid of this insane rule of not flagging for offside until someone is injured.
     
    SFOTyke, Oct 20, 2020
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  4. Farnham_Red

    Farnham_Red Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    The rule is insane but I don’t think it’s to blame in this case. It’s debatable whether he was offside so pre VAR he could well have been given on side by the linesman. But even if the flag had gone up it happened so fast that I doubt it would have made any difference.

    How anyone can sit in a VAR studio and watch that and decide it wasn’t worth taking action on is beyond me.
     
    Farnham_Red, Oct 20, 2020
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  5. BarnsleyReds

    BarnsleyReds Well-Known Member

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    The reason is because of the offside I believe? If it’s not offside it’s a red card. But the ball is not in play so they can’t punish the foul. If it’s a punch or something (violent conduct) it’s different, but as the offence was a ‘professional foul’ that can’t be punished if there is no foul. Which there wasn’t because it was offside.
     
    BarnsleyReds, Oct 20, 2020
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  6. Brush

    Brush Well-Known Member

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    Yes, at Burnley in the FA cup, the ref awarded a penalty and booked one of our defenders, but VAR said offside so the booking was rescinded. All a bit crazy really, because one of the mainstays of the laws of football is "intent". You are only offside if you are in an offiside position with intent to gain an advantage same with handball. I've not seen the Pickford incident but it certainly sounds like he had plenty of intent...
     
    Brush, Oct 20, 2020
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  7. Archey

    Archey Well-Known Member

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    In instances like that, retrospective action should be taken then in my opinion.
     
    Archey, Oct 20, 2020
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  8. Archey

    Archey Well-Known Member

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    This is where it all becomes a bit grey. Had Cavare's tackle in that FA cup game against Burnley been a red card offence for serious foul play, we'd have been talking about a similar sort of situation to this one. I think red card offences in instances like this, where play should have been pulled back, should retrospectively receive a red card. Its a deterrent for players to consider doing it in the future. As Cavare's challenge vs Burnley was a fairly tame one, I think it was dealt with correctly at the time by the official.
     
    Archey, Oct 20, 2020
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  9. BarnsleyReds

    BarnsleyReds Well-Known Member

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    I agree, but not possible under current rules as far as I know.
     
    BarnsleyReds, Oct 20, 2020
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  10. Farnham_Red

    Farnham_Red Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    But thats where I have a problem - it wasnt a professional foul - had Pickford dived like keepers normally do been too late and tripped him Id fully agree you cant have a red card for the denying a goal scoring opportunity, because there wasnt one
    But I totally fail to see how an out of control lunge feet first both feet at knee height isnt a red card whether its was offside or not.
    I read somewhere - not sure if its right that only violent conduct can be punished if the player was offside - you get a free pass on serious foul play.
    That sounds like a green light for defenders to do whatever they like on any striker who has just strayed offside as long as they can claim they were going for the ball
     
    Farnham_Red, Oct 20, 2020
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  11. Harry Hough

    Harry Hough Well-Known Member

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    Pickford's challenge started before Van Dijk was given offside so the intent was there. Taking that into account the foul was actually the first offense so should have been acted upon even if the offside was given.
    Either way round it's not going to bring Van Dijk back but a 3 match ban for Pickford would seem to be in order.
     
    Harry Hough, Oct 20, 2020
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  12. BarnsleyReds

    BarnsleyReds Well-Known Member

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    I’m not saying I agree with the rules, but that’s what they are in my (admittedly somewhat limited) understanding. A professional foul can only be punished if the foul is awarded. Probably needs a rule change, but they were correct in their decision by the letter of the law.
     
    BarnsleyReds, Oct 20, 2020
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  13. Archey

    Archey Well-Known Member

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    No, I don't think it is. Its certainly something that I think should be looked at though. I don't have a problem with VAR as such, more the people using it. If the technology is there to spot these incidents, I feel it should be used to it's fullest.
     
    Archey, Oct 20, 2020
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  14. BarnsleyReds

    BarnsleyReds Well-Known Member

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    The offside happened first though. It doesn’t matter when the official flags.
     
    BarnsleyReds, Oct 20, 2020
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  15. Farnham_Red

    Farnham_Red Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    There isnt such a thing as a professional foul.
    I think - though havent gone back and checked there are 3 relevant offences
    There is denying a goal scoring opportunity which is what is usually referred to as a professional foul - this is a red card and carries a 1 match ban
    - clearly in the case of an offside there was no goal scoring oppertunuity so a red card shouldnt be given

    There is serious foul play - which is a red card and 3 match ban
    - I believe this also cant apply when the ball is dead - eg an offside or presumably out of play - this makes no sense as serious fould play is heavily penalised because it risks causing serious damage to a player - as in this case
    and there is violent conduct which is a red card and minimum 3 match ban - which ranges from tapping someone with your fingers on the chin before a corner is taken 3 match ban- or punching someone off the ball probably more than 3 matches.

    The bizarre thing is had Pickford slapped Van Dyke on the cheek he can be sent off, but drop kicking him in the knees is only serious foul play and unpunished -

    something is very wrong here if that's really what the rules actually say
     
    Farnham_Red, Oct 20, 2020
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  16. Plankton Pete

    Plankton Pete Well-Known Member

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    I think the challenge could easily constitute violent conduct so I'm not sure agree with you here. But we'll never really know I suppose.
     
    Plankton Pete, Oct 20, 2020
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  17. Ton

    Tonjytyke Well-Known Member

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    So you can’t get a red card in the penalty area after an offside decision, but you can get sent off when in the tunnel, as many players and managers have.
     
    Tonjytyke, Oct 20, 2020
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  18. tyk

    tykesfan Well-Known Member

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    Does this mean then, that every time there is an offside awarded, we can assault the opposition without fear of a card being brandished. Seems **** to me
     
    tykesfan, Oct 20, 2020
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  19. BarnsleyReds

    BarnsleyReds Well-Known Member

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    Isn’t violent conduct just for off the ball incidents? Or something outside of normal actions. Aka. A punch, slap, spit etc.

    It’s an awful foul, but it’s not violent conduct I don’t think.
     
    BarnsleyReds, Oct 20, 2020
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  20. BarnsleyReds

    BarnsleyReds Well-Known Member

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    Serious foul play is what I’ve always known as a professional foul. That’s what this incident was.

    I think everyone agrees there’s a problem with the rules, but this is an edge case that’s unlikely to happen again for a few years (as evidenced by the fact that this is the first high profile incident of its type) so it’s not really a priority to change. I imagine the rules will be changed though in the future. Don’t think that can be done during a season.
     
    BarnsleyReds, Oct 20, 2020
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