Spare a thought for the thousands of Italians here who..

Just thought I'd throw this in...........

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/20812...ush-425000-4-bed-detached-pad-on-posh-street/

Hope everyone's safe, Tekky, and that you can all come through this eventually.

 

I try to avoid personal insults but for someone who displays left wing socialist tendencies you have totally missed the point of the original post. Where is your compassion? You have no idea of the problems Italy has at the moment. We had yet another 4.8 earthquake this am (unreported thus far by the BBC) and there are many thousands of people who are now homeless and yet you try to score pathetic political points. Nor did I at ANY TIME blame immigration in my OP. How could I unless they have found a way to cause multiple Earthquakes? The fact is though that the costs of supporting 400k migrants all who have no paperwork or means of support and the rescue operations to save them have added to the financial burder now exacerbated by the disaster unfolding in Central Italy.

Like some of the people on here.. Supertyke, Marc, Dus Tha Nolll, Jimmy Cricket etc and even Jam Drop to some extent you regularly express Left Wing Socialist tendencies and turn everything into a debate about racism. Worse still you turn a discussion into personal insults and cast accusations and a lot of the time dont even read the OP properlty to realise the original poster is not always expressing a personal view but hghlighting waht is actually happening.

The most frustrating thing is that, when I have beencalled racist, bigoted, hypocritical when challenged, not one of you can come up with a solution to the real problems preferring to just cast accusations that everyone who disgrees with your idealistic, (unrealistic) view of the world is racist. Typically you talk about human rights but very rarely mention Responsibilities.

Have you actually worked or lived/ travelled outside of Barnsley or the UK other than for holidays? Some of the Leftist views on here are naive in the extreme.

 

Yes, but a fully paid up citizen of the dear European Union which allowed Tekky legal access. As legal as a great many of the 'boat people' who are there by the invitation of the Italian government.
We all know facts can get muddled to suit, but how these numbers rose from 420,000 to 500,000 within the few minutes between posts is baffling. Must have been a blummin big boat.

 

This with nobs on.
And buttons.

 

Marc
I included you in the list, not because I recall you resorting to abuse and personal insults, but as someone who appears to have quite Socialist leanings in that you are, or at least give the appearance of being fixated on immigration and racism as being the sole driver for people voting Brexit.

In terms of your
response to my post I feel obliged to respond:
1 You assume that Brexit was won on an anti immigration agenda. This is constantly presented by the left with absolutely no proof whatsoever. My main reason is that the EU WILL fail sooner rather than later and whilst we will be impacted even if we are not in but not as much as if we remain. However my vote was not based on a single agenda. nevertheless, it would be hypocritical of me to deny that mass migration was not a consideration, but for practical and not nationalistic or racist reasons.

2 Where did I “condemn migration“ or “want to close the door on migrants”? I did not vote to “end the freedom of movement”. The misconception amongst the left is that anti-EU means anti-Europe, anti-Europeans and anti- Foreigners. People migrate to and from the UK all the time many of them to and from outside the EU, so why do you think it will all of a sudden come to a grinding halt? Please....Stop peddling that nonsense!
What it will do is is bring to a halt to mass migration for solely economic reasons - and lets be clear I do NOT mean genuine asylum seekers who are escaping from religious persecution war and famine, nor people who are capable of supporting themselves and their families.
All the nonsense about denying people the right to improve their lives is just that – nonsense when those people have no means of supporting themselves and pitch up in another country with no documents, no income and cannot speak the language and are totally reliant on the state to house cloth and feed them. With 'Rghts' as the (Left bang on) about comes responsibility.

If you disagree, and that is your entitlement, just tell me what YOUR solution is to mass migration? I bet you can't.

If 10 people turn up every week in Barnsley with no clothes except what they are wearing, no identification papers, no money, and cannot speak the language what would YOU do?
Now try 100 ?
What about a 1000.
Try 4000?
Every week! That is what happened in Lampedusa. Italy has absorbed 400 000t migrants in two years in a deep recession with mass unemplyment. Now throw in multiple Earthquakes in the region with thousands of homes destroyed and tens of thousands of people made homeless. What do you do beside blaming 'tax dodgers' for the cash shortfall as one p*llock on the thread has done?

3 Regarding criticising people who have never left Barnsley (and it may well not apply to anyone listed) my response was due to finding it strange that as someone who has travelled widely, worked abroad, lives abroad I am labelled as 'racist', 'little Englander', 'parochial' (and worse) by some people who have never been outside the UK except possibly on their annual holidays and appear to have little concept of how the world works.
As a final analogy …
I like this house I saw in France on my way down. It is bigger and better than mine and has a pool. I think I might like to live there so I will cut through the owners fence, and camp in his garden until he lets me move in. I will of course demand that he feeds me, clothes me and gives me a daily allowance as I have no money or papers. I dont speak French either.

If you assume that ALL the migrants are fleeing persecution then you are just plain wrong. Many seek EU passports so they can enter Britain where they genuinely believe theat they will be able to live without having to work. I know this because:-
a) There is an Asian store whose owner is waiting for his Italian passport having been granted asylum who will then come to England. He has no family in the UK and cannot speak English but speaks Italian and tells us that life in England will be easy and he will not have to run a store like he does in Italy. Ironically given the shortage of Asian stores in Italy he will be sorely missed by many when he does leave.
b) if you argue that all the migrants are persecuted and fleeing from war etc explain why Sangatte and the Jungle exists and so many who do not have any family connections in Britain are so keen to get to the UK. I know this argument has been raised many time but I have yet to here the socialist left come up with a reasonable answer. France and presumably all the EU countries they ahev travelled through to get to Calais are 'safe havens'. There is only one reason they want to get to the UK, although to point that out gets all the usual racist, bigot, hypocrite accusations from the usual people who live on cloud cuckoo land,. if they argue, like Jamdrop, that anyone should be able to travel anywhere they like i.e. total freedom of movement with no borders, then let's see what happens if a load of Jihadists turn up wanting entry. See the argument is nonsense.

 

What is the one reason they want to get into the UK? Bearing in mind that we give less benefits to immigrants than other European countries.
U can see one obvious reason why I, as a Muslim for example, would want to leave France for the UK. The UK doesn't tend to discriminate against Muslims and hasn't waged a state sponsored campaign of hatred and persecution on them

 

Where is the state sponsored hate campaign you reference? Have you proof of that? Muslims/ Jews and various religions have lived in France, in Paris and Marseille for example, peacefully for many years until recent times. The current situation has resulted in fear after the recent attacks and not by any 'State sponsored' persecution as you allege.

Also, would you like to have a stab at a solution to the problem of mass migration and freedom of movement which you are obviously so in favour of or are you just cherry picking points you can argue against from my posts?

 

The doctor who has met 250,000 migrants
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37695637

 

Here's a solution. I don't own earth, neither do you and nor does anyone else.

And France has made more than one attempt to persecute Muslims in particular Muslim women

 

Obviously it does not work for every single individual. But study after study shows immigration has financial benefit to the host country.

The logic is, people with get up and go - get up and go.
Most immigrants are high achievers
well higher than the average - hence net benefit

 

Err... that is an opinion not any form of practical solution.

Come on give me an idea how we can solve the current situations in practical terms and then I might give your posts some credibility. Do you actually have any idea how to engage in a sensible debate?

In the meantime I really hope you are not responsible for any serious decision making in your place of work!

 

Funny that, given the handful of socialists on here who describe me as a parasite for moving to Italy and accuse me of hypocrisy for outlining the problems of mass UNCONTROLLED migration.
The fallacy is that in their eyes anti EU automatically means anti Europe, anti Europeans, and anti foreigners i.e. racist. They are totally obsessed with racist arguments even twisting myrecent post about the Italy Earthquakes combined with the mass arrival of refugees and migrants causing huge hardship for the population and a massive headache for the Italians. One poster on here, spouting compassion for migrants blamed the problems not on natural disaster but on the tax dodgers and scroungers in Italy. And they call ME hypocritical.

 

Come on, you can't say that there's no hypocrisy in your position. You say that immigrants coming into the country for a better life are an "undeniable drain on state resources" when you freely chose to spend your pension (which benefitted from UK tax relief etc) in a different country, thereby taking money out of the UK economy. At least the benefits given to immigrants go back into our economy.

And it's slightly fallacious to say "well if you can't offer a solution then I don't have to take your points credibly." People can validly offer an opinion on what you say without having a solution themselves.

 

I'm not sure that your last two sentences belong in a "sensible debate". Why not try to just argue your point without attempting to belittle your co-debater? All it does is reduces the effect of your arguments and makes it sound like Prime Minister's Question Time.

 

Your argument is flawed. I take money out of the UK economy but am taxed in the country of residence (actually at a higher rate than the UK. A migrant pays tax in the country of residence but deprives his own country of tax (assuming a double taxation treaty exists). So, in effect, you are saying migration should only benefit the UK and be a one way thing.

Point 2, I only say migrants entering illegaly with no income, no money and no paperwork which you have intepreted as all migrants are a drain. I have never said all migrants are a drain. You have made that up.

As for "at leasts the benefits go back into our economy " that is an absolutely stupid statement for so many reasons I can't even be bothered to explain.

The point of dismissing the 'solution' was it was put forward as one in response to my original 'challenge' Of course an opinion is acceptable but not when put forward as a solution.

Yoiu appear to be one of those people who only read into posts what you want to believe rather than what has actually been written.

Edit: Forgot a point. Some fools on here fools stated I am hypocritical for retiring abroad and taking my pension with me and I should lose my pension if I leave the UK and are the same people arguing for freedom of movement and everyone should have the right to better themselves. How ridiculous and contradictory is that stance?

 

Uncontrolled, does not mean illegal. If you have been there a couple of years now, you must be familiar with the 'mare nostrum' policy. These migrants were there at the invitation of the Italian government, who failed to provide safe passage, hundreds died and the govt subsequently and ill-advisedly went for an open door policy in a guilt ridden response to those deaths.
Now even the biggest do-gooder can spot the disaster awaiting. But in terms of legality and basic human rights, there is little difference between these people and CONTROLLED migrants, such as you dear self.

 

The Italian government did not invite the migrants, they saved the lives of hundreds of people in a humanitarian operation.The. Fact that they were forced to do this by people acting illegally seems to have escaped you.

 

Just give up.

Tthere are a handful (and that is all there are) of posters on here whose view of the world is so distorted by their left wing socialist ideologies they cannot argue logically.

One poster argued everyone has a right to better themselves and free movement is good (ignoring the 'responsibility' that they should not do so off the backs of others) whilst arguing that as a migrant my UK pension should be stopped. The reasoning?? Because I am draining the UK of resource whilst migrants bring money in (ignoring the obvious fact that they are therefore 'draining their own country of resources'. Moreover, even migrants on benefits are good because 'the benefits paid to them stay in the UK' .You couldn't make it up!

Not one of these 'do-gooders' comprehend how the real world works and so always ignore my request that they come up with a viable solution to the problem of mass immigration that solves economic and societal problem that it causes. they simply repeat the mantra of human rights (no mention of responsibilities).

Oh! and I am, apparently, no different from someone who arrives illegally, without paperwork, no money and just the clothes they have on. My answer is that if I could not afford to emigrate I would not have and would certainly not attempt illegally enter a country without basic proof of identity and where I come from and expect to be allowed to stay. I exclude those who are genuine asylum seekers escaping persecution and war from that statement, but only extreme Left -wingers argue that ALL migrants are in that position. Many thousands are simply economic migrants and, as I say, if they are, then they could and should apply through legal channels and not try to force their way into the country using violence and threats as they are doing in Calais.

The longer I spend abroad the more I begin to realize the Aussie expression 'Whingeing Poms' is a statement of fact rather than a humorous reference. Too many on here think the world owes them and everyone a living. the world isn't fair, and where and to whom you are born is a lottery.

 

That was the point. He was NOT a co-debater. Disregarding questions raised, or misquoting or misrepresenting what I posted is NOT debating.

I assure you those 'belittling comments' as you call them are mild compared to some of the vitriol I have had aimed at mein the past by people who do not even bother to read the posts properly or if they do so, misrepresent or quote lines out of context. e.g. 'Vile human being' 'racist', 'bitter', 'bigoted' etc.

In fact, 'racist' is a bridsge too far for me as it is defamation and slanderous when used verbally in front of others and if any of these keyboard warriors care to meet me and repeat them when I am over in January for the birth of my Grandaughter I can easily arrange for witnesses, (a couple of ex- policeman and a corporate lawyer from the City) to be present so I can record what they have to say. I could do with some extra money since they will not find any post I have ever made which is racist! Any one who actually knows me socially or has ever worked with me knows I am not.